Typing (and thinking) Out Loud Thread
Alas, I'm not going to be able to do anything but sporadic typing and thinking until tomorrow. However, the last thread may be getting a bit big and unwieldy so I thought I'd provide a brand new comment thread for people to keep talking here as well if they wish. (Obviously people should feel free to keep posting to the previous discussion though, especially if they are replying to comments there -- this is 'another' space, rather than an 'instead of' space)
People might want to post questions too for people to discuss -- I've heard from at least one person who would like to do that, and this would be a good place for that.
In the interim, because I see (in inchoate ways thus far) this issue as being so closely linked with and to feminism, I thought I'd quote something bell hooks said at the conclusion of Feminist Theory; from Margin to Centre
Anyway, I think there are things to muse on here. Just very briefly in terms of contextualising her conclusion. I don't think bell hooks is saying that oppression doesn't exist, that it shouldn't be called what it is, or that those engaged in oppresion shouldn't be called on that (or that doing that calling is itself an act of oppression). I do think she's saying that it's a rare person who isn't or hasn't been complicit in oppression themselves in one way or another. Certainly, that's one I'd have to put my hand up to.
People might want to post questions too for people to discuss -- I've heard from at least one person who would like to do that, and this would be a good place for that.
In the interim, because I see (in inchoate ways thus far) this issue as being so closely linked with and to feminism, I thought I'd quote something bell hooks said at the conclusion of Feminist Theory; from Margin to Centre
The formation of an oppositional world view is necessary for feminist
struggle. This means that the world that we have most intimately known,
the world in which we feel 'safe' (even if such feelings are
illusions) must be radically changed. Perhaps it is the knowledge that everyone
must change, not just those we label enemies or oppressors, that has so far
served to check our revolutionary impulses. Those revolutionary
impulses must freely inform our theory and practice if feminist movement to
end existing oppression is to progress, if we are to transform our present reality.
Anyway, I think there are things to muse on here. Just very briefly in terms of contextualising her conclusion. I don't think bell hooks is saying that oppression doesn't exist, that it shouldn't be called what it is, or that those engaged in oppresion shouldn't be called on that (or that doing that calling is itself an act of oppression). I do think she's saying that it's a rare person who isn't or hasn't been complicit in oppression themselves in one way or another. Certainly, that's one I'd have to put my hand up to.
posted by dove at 8:45 am
53 Comments:
I'm not quite sure I view that quote in the same way you do, dove. What it says to me is that there must be an antithesis in order to provoke change. (That reality has been used by those who view the world in terms of good v evil, without acknowledging the complexities of such a facile complex, for millenia.)
I would add, however, in relation to the online struggles lately, that the antithesis ought not be seen in those among us but in those who are truly the opposition (the circular firing squad mentality - which is also seen in the feminist movement - but that's another long post).
I'll have to ponder those words more, as well as yours. Thank you for a thought-provoking post.
Hmm. Actually, now, I think my words are badly misrepresentive of what she's argued. 'Everyone has to change' isn't the same as 'everyone has been complicit in oppression' That last can too easily be taken to mean 'we have all been equally oppressed or we have all been equally oppressive' or something ridiculous like that.
And she's certainly not saying that.
catnip -- thankyou for stopping by, coherency is eluding me tonight, so I think I'm going to call it an evening.
More food for thought on the way we see the world and the way in which the world sees us...
And, for you nanette:
The reason we have poverty is that we have no imagination.
nanette,
I took that quote out of its broader context in that Allan Watts piece I linked to, which I think makes the point that we must think differently.
Watts' writings in that area - of challenging the accepted lingistics that become meaningless once they're really deconstructed - is zen-based, but it's not beyond comprehension and it certainly brings forth a new paradigm.
Oh...listen to me...all of these lofty concepts. Okay. Here's the deal: we must surpass our tendency towards mediocrity.
Here's a down home type quote:
There's Nothing in the Middle of the Road but Yellow Stripes and Dead Armadillos
* Jim Hightower
Yes, Ductape, in part I think she is talking about internalised oppression -- and even if she weren't, it's surely there in the world.
I think though, that she's also talking about the insidious way in which oppressive power is distributed, so that, for example, trade unions (not all of them!) often seek to maintain their members' employment rights not so much by challenging employer's, but by lobbying against 'undocumented immigrants.'
Another example she draws on in various ways is that of white women who may experience sexist oppression in one context (to a greater or lesser extent) and may nevertheless participate in racist oppression (to a greater or lesser extent) in another. And that these things -- and the history of these things -- make it hard to build political solidarity (on a broad basis, anyway) because it requires people to think about whether they oppress as well as whether they are oppressed, and to act to end that if necessary. But without such solidarity we will not end sexist oppression, or racist oppression or economic oppression, or its other cousins, because each one sustains the others. It's one of those all or nothing package deals. And that means change.
Nanette,
I love that idea of challenging the 'natural,' attending to the 'weirdness' of having some organisations designated as 'human rights' organisations. Language does matter hugely, because it's such a major part of how people organise the world.
DTF, though I'm not particularly noted for my unrestrained optimism, I do see something important in the notion that not so very long ago (probably, honoured ancestor, you had even been born ;) ) Winston Churchill could say quite openly and unabashedly that "I have not become the King's First Minister in order to preside over the liquidation of the British Empire"
Like torture, empire still exists. But it has at least become a dirty word, something to be ashamed of, something to be masked. And so now, one of the ways to challenge it, to undermine it, is to call it by its proper name:
Empire. When Churchill spoke, that was not the case.
Even though, like all other progress, there is nothing irreversible about that shift.
kansas here.
nlinstpaul, damn you, you got me to talk.
I'm an only child. The only kind of conflict I know how to do is internal. When sibs fight, my eyes get big, my heart pounds, I don't know what to do, so I do the only thing I know how to, which is to sit in a corner and watch the battle with half of my attention while with the other half I watch what's going on inside of me.
Annoyance, that's what was going on inside of me for a lot of the past week. I wanted to put a lot of people, on both "sides," in Time Out for being brats. So I've been looking at that judgmentalism in me, that distasteful superiority, the "black" on my own pot.
Your post helps me identify the crux of something I believe to my soul: all that painful fighting stuff looks like ego, which makes it illusion. Underneath is the truth that Alice Walker articulates in that passage, which is that at some basic level we are both sides of every argument. It would help if we could let ourselves grieve for each other, I think. And in that shared grief we'd find the joy of not being alone. I believe Duct's rants are all about grieving for us, even though they don't always come across that way. I think he's trying to be a brother. I appreciate it. I think I love him for it. Some of his earth family siblings don't hear any sympathy in his "voice," and honestly, I can understand how they can miss it, because he disguises it sometimes, and he's really good at disguise. :) I just can't bring myself to dislike or condemn them for interpreting something differently from how I do. I just can't love them, or any of you, in one minute and hate them, or you, the next. You're my brothers and sisters. I need you.
But don't make me talk about this again! :)
Kansas, You've articulated something that has been on my mind as I've read these discussions and will now set forth here, my first comment on this debate. And to be fair, I've not read every word in this discussion.
For better or worse, presentation counts. The style of DF's posts have had a significant impact. Like it or not, the subject(s) of this discussion can't be completely separated from the style of his prose. Admittedly not the sharpest tool in the shed, it is sometimes an effort for me to look beyond the style to see the larger message. I'm not knocking the style, only noting that it is a factor along with any others that may be present.
My 2 cents.
Hello, ntinstpaul, kansas and boran2,
I'm very glad to see all of you in this discussion (though I don't doubt, kansas, that I'm among the people that you're thinking 'Brat! Time out for you!' about (and then in your self-critical and reflective way having to reflect about being judgmental)).
I guess I'm going to try and address you separately in turn (I'll admit it, one of the things I miss about Scoop is threading, not least because having three of one's own posts in a row seems like the height of arrogance):
ntinstpaul: I'm delighted to see you -- please don't feel intimidated about posting here and please continue to post here. I'm certainly not terribly profound (I can't say that about Nanette, DTF and poco et al though ;) ).
And I guess what I can say, in response to your Alice Walker quote, is that for what it's worth I do sincerely believe that I was (and am) complicit through my silences for an all-too-familiar pattern of behaviour that I saw emerging from as early as last December. It's not that I never spoke, but I didn't speak often or unmistakeably enough. And to some extent I was trying to make redress for that by speaking unambiguously about what I saw. When I talk about Alex, yes, I'm talking about resemblances that I see in the world. But I am also, in all seriousness, talking about resemblances that I see in the mirror that I wish and need to expurgate. I know that it can seem like a cheap rhetorical trick to say that I don't see myself as innocent in this. But I'm not.
Anyway, it's a pleasure to see you.
Hi kansas,
I don't know, maybe I'm going to make you talk about this again. I hope so. I also hope I'm not going to seem too defensive, though I fear those may be famous last words.
It doesn't seem like it and right now, I've no doubt that it probably doesn't, but actually I think of myself as someone who tends to shy away from conflict like nobody's business.
As I've mentioned, my words are simply not there among the responses to many of the comments quoted in that last piece. I was --for the most part -- sitting in that proverbial corner experiencing a sickening sense of deja vu.
If things had stayed at the 'DTF is a doo-doo head' level, that's perhaps where I would have stayed, albeit with misgivings and a sense of cowardice and self-betrayal (one which you certainly need not share, kansas: from memory, your responses are to be found in many of those threads).
But things did not remain at that level. Instead of "DTF is a doo-doo head," it became "DTF is a foreigner" and in one case 'DTF fled his homeland' (and in others, I think at least implicitly, "DTF is Muslim"), with being 'foreign', a presumed refugee and 'Muslim' standing in each case in place of 'doo-doo head' and having a similar connotation. But there is a difference I think, between discounting someone's uncomfortable words on the basis that one thinks they are a 'doo-doo head' and on the basis that one thinks they are a foreigner.
For me, this was not so much about a difference in interpretation: it wasn't that some people dislike what DTF writes. It was about the tactics used to discount his words.
It's true that I cannot lay claim to gentleness. I do think, though, that there is a question of what constitutes gentleness in this and similar cases. I certainly wouldn't claim what I've said as gentle, but I'm also not sure that gentleness always looks gentle either, if that makes any sense.
bell hooks, no matter whether she is addressing issues of gender, class or race, always insists that we hold the mirror to ourselves (on either side of whatever 'divide'), to see both how it affects us, & our complicty. It's about critiquing & expanding the dominant narrative. We all need to learn to take a little "friendly fire," to have some holes shot in our own stories, not in some fatal circular firing squad, but as precursor to making the greater body "whole," expanding & transforming the narrative lines. Long-winded way of saying that change starts with being open to it at home, with one's self. An activity that can take place alongside an uncompromising, in-your-face oppostional analysis.
I recently her re-visited her where we stand: CLASS MATTERS, where she her own "personal journey from a working-class background to the world of affluence, in an effort to be more class conscious" as the fulcrum for a wide-ranging blistering discussion.
However, my silence, like all our silences about class, easily becomes part of the collusion, part of our acquiescence and participation in unjust economic practices, an unwitting support of class elitism. (p. 163)
Rather than an invitation to the mutual firing squad, it's an invite to pull up a chair at the table of troubling, difficult topics that NEED to be discussed.
Funny, that chose you bell hook to cite; she was married for a while to Nate Mackey ("Gloria" then, tho there were a few poems under "bell"), who authored the "fictional" passage I left in your last diary. I've often wondered if the fiery portions of Aunt Nancy's personality in his novels isn't at least partially based on her. Forgive the da capo:
"What makes you think of Africa, Asia and other parts of the world," she asked, raising her voice, standing up and putting her hand on her hip, "as not a part of 'the whole culture'? What makes you feel excluded by our sources if not the exclusionistic biases of the culture you identify as 'whole' boomeranging back at you?" . . . "I don't know where you get this business of gathering vs. dispersing," she argued . . . "the sense of them as an either/or proposition, one a choice against the other. We inhale as well as exhale, the heart dilates as well as contracts. . . . You may want something different, something more modest maybe, but your modesty betrays its falseness, shows itself to be the wolf-in-sheep's-clothing it is, when you saddle up your high horse to tell the rest of us we have to likewise lower our sights."
to Nag: Your last comments to DTF were quite moving. Hope we're good as well.
Nanette!!! That is a brilliant example of language embedding structural atrocity! making it invisible & normal.
More, please!
kansas here,
Dear Dove, I'm absorbing, weighing, going "hmmm," sucking my thumb. Don't expect this to happen fast! See you in a few days, lol.
boran,
There's no doubt that DTF's style affects his readers, just an MSOC's angry rants affect me in a negative way at times (many times, actually and yes, she knows that). And I've found myself having to reread DTF's words so I can get a better sense of his meaning many times.
One thing people often forget or refuse to do is to ask questions. I'm not shy in that sense. Ask my former psychiatrist who treated me for PTSD. My life depended on that therapy and I wanted to be crystal clear on the guidance he was giving me when he offered suggestions that were foreign to my view of the world. It was good practice on keeping an open mind.
However, I suppose that when one's life isn't at risk, it's much easier to assign interpretations, motives and intent to words rather than to ask what they might mean. I bought into the adage "there are no stupid questions" long ago.
Now, as for DTF's tone, any consistent reader will find wisdom that's parsed with a sarcastic sense of humour. As one who loves sarcasm, I enjoy that. And as one who respects wisdom, I invite it. That's not to say that we don't all have a bit of wisdom or that DTF is always right (forgive me, DTF :)). It's just that sometimes (many times as I get older and lose my memory) I need to decide if I want to be challenged or if I'll just settle for the mediocre or the so-called convential wisdom. That seems incredibly boring to me. I love learning, so I will put myself through some excruciating grey matter focused exercises at times to do it (not that you're excruciating DTF):).
Really, what it comes down to is choice in the end, isn't it? There are some people I don't read because I find them annoying (lack of depth, repetitive mumbo jumbo, talking points, been there, done that) and there are others I choose to read for whatever reasons. The thing is it's my choice. We ought to take reponsibility for those choices instead of feeling like words are simply being thrust upon us and then blaming the person who wrote them for putting us in such an awful predicament. (And I know I'm not always a shining example of that behaviour. Just witness my horror in the front-paged torture diary at BT. But at least I learned more about myself through that.)
I was just about to start a post on my blog about one of the things I abhor most in this world - hypocrisy. And, while I was soaking in the tub today I was well aware that if I find it so abhorrent, I certainly need to look at my own hypocrisy as well. I learned that as a member of a 12 step program: "when you point a finger, you have three more pointing right back at you" or the old "we teach most what we need to learn".
As I've said before, I'm a simple woman and, heck, if a cliche says it all for me, that's good enough. I'm not proud. :) I'm also skilled in dissecting and summing up in simpler terms because that's what works to keep my mind less cluttered and focused.
Okay, now how did I arrive here? lol Speaking of cluttered minds... What can I say? Beats talking about the birds with my cats sometimes. :) Not always though!
Sorry boran2, I'll try and respond to you tomorrow (I got part way through a response, then realised my brain was running on empty).
Yep arcturus, brilliant pretty much sums up Nanette I think. I had absolutely no idea about that connection, by the way -- talk about fortuitous. I haven't read Class Matters , but Feminist Theory: From Margin to Centre is one of those books I just keep going back to.
Hi kansas, no problems, I'm doing much the same what with one thing and another. take care
kansas wrote:
I believe Duct's rants are all about grieving for us, even though they don't always come across that way.
Exactly.
I also want to thank you for the only child perspective. As the youngest of six (in an alcoholic family) who felt like the invisible child, I took on that role and it was incredibly difficult to work my way out of but I found my passion in simple things like the school newspaper or athletics and I became visible again - most especially, to myself.
nanette,
Thank you for your "they don't love us" post.
All,
A quick note to let you guys know that I am deleting my diaries at BooMan. Probably not all of them, but any ones where I share personal info that could be used against me.
This episode has me a bit scared actually. There are now links between my name and being labeled anti-American and that I preach hate. In this day and age that just ain't good... as DTF would say, you never know who is lurking.
I have already deleted my meet up diaries as they clearly, for anyone who wanted to, easily lead to my true identity. I have lots of people to worry about in this regard, the least of whom is me. I saw what happened to stark and others.
I do have them saved and I want to let any of you know who commented on them that it pains me to erase your words, but life takes strange twists and turns.
I don't know how much I will be participating online in the future, I can only stand so much, but I will be lurking here or there.
Take care,
spider
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Dove,
can you delete my last comment please? I referenced someone's name without thinking. Big mistake. I don't know how to edit it. Can anyone tell me how?
But I didn't post under my blogger name, so the trashcan doesn't show up for me. Can you do it?
supersoling here
Thanks anyway Nanette :o)
Spiderleaf,
I'm really sorry for letting that slip. And especially after you just expressed concern about identities. Damn!
Dove,
when you see this can you please delete my comment to Spiderleaf above?
Thank you.
Or just edit the name and replace with "CookTing"... it's a really nice comment, I certainly wouldn't want to see it go down the memory hole. ;)
No worries hon, I understand... you should hear me and CT try to talk about you... super, no Mike, umm, supersoling... quite amusing actually ;)
You have expressed my/ our thoughts about our meet up perfectly... back at ya.
(and check your email, photos in the mail ;))
Spider,
Got 'em. Thanks :o) I was thinking too that AG has the kind of memorable face that would be hard to forget. What a cool guy....
Dove,
if you can just replace the name above with CookTing, as Spiderleaf suggested, I would greatly appreciate it :o)
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Talk about incompetent! I've deleted your original post, supersoling, since I can't edit it (probably you all should be relieved that I can't edit your comments ;) ). On my second attempt, I will ensure that I have actually made the requested tweak. Sorry about that. Supersoling's post follows below:
Spiderleaf,
What a drag. Really. Please tell me that you saved the pictures of all of us too. This might sound sappy, and I'm the sappy type ;o) but it occured to me over the last few days that i was already having trouble remembering exactly what you and CookTing and everyone else looks like, but then as my mind started scanning the visual memories, the one image of you that stands out for me is when I first saw you while we were talking on the phone, trying to find each other. The smile on your face was priceless :o) At least I have that. Well...that and the hangovers LOL!!
I bailed myself last night. I'm not exactly happy about it, and there's a sense that I'm abandoning my compatriots, but the split has become too wide to bridge, at least for me, and the reality of my life is that the more time I spend online, the less time I spend actually doing something to change the nightmare that is this country right now. And I know that I can remain close and in contact with those of you that I feel close to. So many of you/them/us. So don't you go dropping off the face of this Earth Spiderleaf. The bond that was made last week was a deep one for me, and I don't want to lose that...ever.
Be well :o)
nanette,
I didn't think your comment was disparaging at all. It was just a reminder of the realities in the world.
spiderleaf,
Good to see you hear and I totally understand your decisions. ((((hugs))))
It's all just incredibly sad. That's what some people can't seem to grasp there. That what happened at BT should cause you so much fear ought to be a wake up call to those who don't realize the possible real life ramifications of their anger. It's tantamount to some of the worst I've seen from political extremists online who seek to destroy those with differing opinions. That it's crept into progressive communities (and that's why I defended Armando, btw) just shows how little we really know about the people we interact with on a daily basis online.
I want you to know that you have nothing to fear from me, at least. May you find many whom you can cross off that list of those who would seek to do you harm.
I feel a bit like I’m racking up more “IOU a substantial reply” dockets than I can honour right now though I'm going to try and do my best. Also, for obvious reasons, I tend to be writing and posting on a slightly different cycle than many of those here – just wanted to let you all know I made the changes as soon as I spotted them.
Spiderleaf,
I must admit I am very definitely in the camp of ‘people have the right to delete their diaries and comments’ for reasons that include those you cite. Though certainly one would hope it were a right that one didn’t feel one had to exercise. I do hope you’ll keep on posting on the terrains and topics of your choice.
I’m going to take the liberty of dropping you a quick line if that’s ok.
Anyway, take care of yourself
PS – there are two deleted posts in this thread – one of supersoling’s deleted at his request and reposted in tweaked form; the other me mucking up my first attempt at tweaking. Still no spray-on hair though.
I'm disengaging the cloaking device for a moment to express my dismay to spiderleaf (and my other favorite bloggers, who all seem to be here).
It's horrifying that the accepted way in which people interact with each other in the U.S. has become the "politics of personal destruction." Why is it that, when someone articulates an unorthodox idea, the mob attacks the messenger? What causes so many people to cower in fear or scream in anger at the mere expression of a thought that doesn't fit precisely into their own narrow mindset?
Is it because our school system, public and private, is single-mindedly devoted to vocational education and to slotting students into their acceptable role in the existing class hierarchy, so that teaching students to think has become unthinkable? Is it because science-fearing, hatemongering, christianist fundamentalism is more pervasive than we realize? Is it because our lives are dominated by corporate organizations that function as sociopaths and reward sociopathic and narcissistic behavior?
Oh, hell, I'm digressing all over your blog, Dove. What I really showed up to say is that I'm saddened and discouraged, spiderleaf, that someone with your intelligence and perception is being driven away by the tsunami of hate. There are so few of us who are willing to question the ruling paradigm and so many forces determined to keep us from making a stand together.
On reflection, I apologize for the tsunami metaphor--it was insensitive given today's events. I do feel strongly, though, that hate has deadly consequences.
Dove,
Thanks for correcting my foulups. And I'm sorry to have eaten up so much of your valuable comment IOU time ;o)
Raging Hippie,
Nice to find you here. I feel the same way about my favorite bloggers being here. It's good and not so good because it signals a very deep rift at BT. I had clung to very idealistic hope for community there and in the past felt a real dismay and loss when people I'd grown fond of left over disagreements or personality clashes. I admit it's a childish way of viewing things. People come and go out of our lives all the time. But still it's not easy seeing connections lost. So I surprised myself last night when I decided to call it quits over there too. I just don't see much action anymore. And I've been guilty of inaction myself. Getting caught up in the dysfunctionality of some of the worse skirmishes. Having found Dove, Manny, Nanette, and others on their own blogs, sharing connections with one another probably made the decision to leave BT a lot easier. And hopefully I'll be able to stay in contact with my friends there. If not, then that's alright too because there is so much at stake right now and my time and energies are not unlimited, so I'd rather focus them on getting more real things done. More actual activism. Which for me was always one of the most attractive aspects of BT. The coordinating of protests and writing campaigns, and so on. I haven't felt any motivational vibes there for a long time now and I needed that. I was drawn to it.
Anyway, as I said, nice to see you here...at Dove's place :o)
Thanks, super!
I, too, have been feeling that it's time to get active. I have my own demons to overcome on the road to activism--lack of personal transportation on a practical level, deep-seated reclusive tendencies on a psychological level. But I'm trying to find a local group I can hook up with (I've signed up with the local CodePink folks, for starters), because I'm afraid that it's crunch time. There's way too much nasty out there.
Ductape, my motives are selfish. It's not that I believe that planting my large self on a streetcorner with a sign will promptly make right all the world's wrongs. It's that it's becoming very hard to think well of myself as long as I remain stealthily within my comfort zone.
Thank you all for your words of support. I have been struggling with a post on my blog about all this today when I should be getting some work done.
btw - Tracy's diary has now been deleted it would appear. Or else I've gone crazy.
DTF,
Yes, I'm aware of the pointlessness of letter writing. I guess what I should have said to better explain what i meant was that it was at least some sort of action and the coordinating of it. Something that is sorely missing from that site now despite the efforts of our friendly not Joe who's not from Boston, Boston Joe. And I don't mean to denigrate it. Not at all. I just think that people are beginning to bump into the outer edges of the reality of this nightmare and it's fraying people's nerves and the inner selves are finding out that maybe we had less in common than we thought. Everyone, well, almost everyone wants peace, but real peace can only come with real change. Not just a cessation of hostilities. And we are the ones who need the most changing. That's messing with a lot of people's heads...it looks like.
As for me, I lean to the radical side in the way I think and what I think will be necesarry as far as action goes. Most people aren't ready for that kind of reality yet. Most still think that if we can just elect more democrats that that will solve so many problems. It won't. Ralph Nader was more right about that than people want to admit.
But do uncloak, raging hippie and do digress, because that's what this place has been about from the start -- digression anyway. Seriously, if you look through the older posts, you'll see people wandering into all sorts of unexpected places at times.
boran2 -- I owe you a reply and something raging hippie said, "the mob attacks the messenger" reminded me of what I was trying to say. It's a general observation of something I've seen -- as well as experienced actually -- offline too, which is why I think when this kind of thing crops up it's part of a general pattern much more than it is about this or that individual.
The offline conflict I'm thinking about fell out around ethnicity and nationality (which are among the faultlines that I see in this case and -- doubtless there's a pattern too in that those are the faultlines that I tend to end up in conflicts around). Certainly what I experienced in that struggle was a kind of catch-22. When concerns about racism and nationalism were presented in a manner which that (majority white U.S. -- though it could as easily have been N.Z. or the U.K for that matter) organisation found unchallenging, there was little discussion and less action. When concerns were finally raised in a way that was challenging, those of us involved were told we were being too angry and confrontational, and that if we toned down some, people would have a much easier time agreeing with what we had to say. But it was only then that things began to change, at least a little.
Anyway, I guess that experience meant that some of this had an element of deja vu from my perspective.
Catching up...
First of all, welcome raging hippie and in the spirit of "we all need to feel like we're at least doing something to stop the madness" - write those letters or whatever you choose to do. :)
super,
I e-mailed you (I think). ((hugs))
spidey,
btw - Tracy's diary has now been deleted it would appear. Or else I've gone crazy.
I saw that and when I went looking for a cached version on google, I found this which opened my eyes a bit about how Tracy's blanket mantra of "support the troops" is not exactly what it appears to be. Special forces are "troops" as well, aren't they? I was very disturbed to find such a rant after the line we've all been given at BT. Sigh... As a result, I understand more now about her inner conflicts.
Oh, and let us know when you finish your blog post, spidey.
And a tip of the hat to Monsieur Ductape who helps keep me sane (believe me!).
I forgot to mention scribe's new diary at BT. Beautiful.
I'd suggest that you also read this soldier's response to MT as well as the rest of the thread.
In death, we are all the same. Or so I thought.
Speaking of oppression, you can now list me, dove, as one whose religious beliefs have been attacked at BT.
catnip, just to let you know I'm in the middle of dropping you a line
Catnip,
I never got an email. And there's something that I need to say. Despite my profound disagreements with Tracy, and especially despite what I've read over there tonight,I would prefer not to be a part of searching out and linking to any of Tracy's old posts in an effort to call her out on her recent behavior. And I certainly understand that this is not my Blog. It's Dove's. And therefore it's Dove's call on what she permits and what she doesn't. All I'm saying is that, at least for me, I see no point in it. Those of us who've come over here recently have already given sufficient explanation as to the why and the how. Personally, it will not ease my soul to go on a Jeff Gannon type hunt for her past opinions no matter how much I disagree with her, or feel that she is not what I thought she was. Believe me, it's about all I can do to keep from posting over there in the draft diary right now. Not least of all because she said she was calling it quits at BT, but is back there now bullying even DamnitJanet. DamnitJanet of all people. DamnitJanet who is by far the most active antiwar protestor and opponent of Bush that is on that site. She's done far more in real life to oopose this war than Tracy, me, BJ, and anyone else I can think of over there. With me though, I said I was leaving and I meant what I said. I didn't wait for the conditions to be more in my favor so that I could jump back in and start abusing people. It's called principle. Something that is sorely lacking there right now.
super,
I found that old post by accident when I used Google to search for the diary she deleted. My finding it helped me to understand her turmoil a bit more - a turmoil brought on by inconsistent beliefs. I'm not "hunting down" anything. It was an accidental finding. And yes I did present it to her because I abhor hypocrites and she needs to wake up - as do others.
I have made my last post there since I was so offended by CabinGirl, Booman and Tracy again. No more negativity. No more abuse. I'm done with that site.
I feel the need to retreat in general and just stick to my blog and my thoughts so I can get my head back on straight. I was already deeply affected emotionally by the ME war and I allowed myself to be further wounded - in a way I didn't but should have in the end expected.
I'm not perfect. I'm just another human being trying to do more than survive.
catnip,
I wanted to say that I'm glad you've reached a point of decision. I also hope when you venture out from your blog that this will among the places you venture to.
As a general observation (obviously the specific case is now moot), I'd agree with supersoling's comment, though perhaps I say it as oughtn't. I'm very much still getting the hang of all of this, in case y'all hadn't noticed.
I had written a longish post in response to dove and super but I guess I forgot to hit post after I previewed it.
Basically, what it came down to is this: for all the discussions we've had here about being silent in the face of others oppression at BT, has anything really changed?
That question is not posed to assign guilt or shame (useless emotions). It's only meant to prompt introspection.
Hi catnip,
FWIW, I am introspecting.
What I can say so far is that I think we do perceive differently some of what happened on that thread at BT and what happened on this thread for that matter. I'm glad supersoling said what he did and think he was right to do so. I'm also glad that you came across those old threads by accident. I may try and add more to this comment later. Obviously there are resemblances between my last 'Alex' post and yours. I'm not sure that there's an identity though and from my perspective at least this may be something where the devil is in the details.
Certainly I think CabinGirl was trying to attack and bait you on the basis of your religious beliefs and that is not something I want to be silent about.
For the general record though, I don't particularly anticipate making future posts specifically about BT, or making it the focus of what I write.
Anyway, I'm not done thinking but in the interim I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you.
This will be my last comment regarding BT on this thread or any other here at In Flight.
Catnip, some of what I said to you in my comment about Tracy's older comments could have been said better And that I went on and added my6 own observations about Tracy made my comments to you seem somewhat hypocritical For that, I apologize. But I do have a general sense of discomfort in naming names because I'm quite sure that our words here are being read and talked about elsewhere. For myself, I could care less if people talk about their opinions of me in other places. I'm quite secure in my history and my view of things, here, there, and anywhere else for that matter. But this is Dove's blog, and it's her call as to how she operates it. It's only left for me to respect her wishes.
Certainly I think CabinGirl was trying to attack and bait you on the basis of your religious beliefs and that is not something I want to be silent about.
I appreciate that and that's all I was wondering about. I was deeply hurt that some didn't seem to see it for what it was: an attack on how I practice my religious beliefs and that, after everything we've discussed here - which began by your pointing out the same types of behaviour of BT in the past - what happened to me didn't seem to matter.
For the general record though, I don't particularly anticipate making future posts specifically about BT, or making it the focus of what I write.
Of course not. That's why I stuck to this thread to post my concerns about BT because we were still discussing it here. I haven't brought BT into your newer posts.
super,
I'm not quite sure I understand your apology (no need to elaborate - I'll just read it over until I get it) but thank you for it, nonetheless.
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